There’s been some talk of a school bond; but the size and the timing have yet to be worked out.
For the latest poll: If there were a school bond measure - how would you vote?
If a bond were on the ballot for schools in November, would you support it?
Subscribe to RSS Feed
Subscribe via E-mail
45 responses so far ↓
1 Kenneth McClamrock // May 19, 2008 at 11:00 am
I’ll take the bait.
I would vote NO in a heartbeat.
2 Kenneth McClamrock // May 19, 2008 at 11:00 am
I’ll take the bait.
I would vote NO in a hearbeat.
3 Justin Thibault // May 19, 2008 at 11:10 am
Kenneth - Would you do it twice?
Kids can learn well enough in trailers, I guess.
4 Kenneth McClamrock // May 19, 2008 at 12:31 pm
If I could Justin… I have taught in a trailor 4 of my 5 years. Last year, my 3 Inclusion classes (the lowest level in US History with EC students mainstreamed into a regular ed. classroom) equaled or bettered every other teacher’s (at my school) regular and honors level classes. My honors bettered all other class averages except the AP and IB level students. My classes were all in the trailors, their classes were all within the school. The “the students can not receive an adequate education in a trailor” argument in hogwash.
Most teachers and students I know prefer trailors to classrooms. For one, you can control the temperature. For two, you do not have to worry about loud kids walking the hallways. The students can work and learn in peace and quiet.
No student progress has ever struggled because of a trailor for a classroom. Student performances are directly related to their home environment and expectations placed on them by their parents. Typically, those students whose parents do not enable them and are active in their young person’s life, are those who exceed. Parents who enable or show no participation or care typically have students who do not do as well.
(sorry about the double post earlier)
5 Justin Thibault // May 19, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Ken - OK, what happens when you run out of space for the trailers?
6 Thierry Wernaers // May 19, 2008 at 12:44 pm
You pile them on top of each other?
Just kidding
7 Kenneth McClamrock // May 19, 2008 at 12:49 pm
Justin
What schools are faced with that problem?
8 Justin Thibault // May 19, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Theirry - You bring up a good point, actually.
The BOE has started approving 2-story designs for school buildings because of land prices going up - especially where new schools need to be built.
You can’t do that with trailers. Actually, trailers are the most inefficient use of land per student AND they have higher maintenance, per sq. ft. replacement (trailers last 10 years - school buildings 50), and utilities costs…even if you stack them.
9 Steve Smith // May 19, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Does a school bond package mean that the property taxes are going up????
10 Justin Thibault // May 19, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Ken -
All of them.
If you’ll check, there’s a finite amount of land at each school. When you plant trailers on the ground, that’s ground you can’t use for other things like recreation and assembly areas. Sooner or later, you run out of space for this temporary, inefficient solution.
Steve -
Yes.
As I’ve explained before - your taxes are going up anyway: you just get to choose your poison.
11 Kenneth McClamrock // May 19, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Justin
“All of them” is not a good answer. I want to know what school has run out of “finite” space and has no room for any more trailors/classrooms. R. Brown McAllister has a giant field, a blacktop area and large playground areas. They have plenty of land. Concord High School has a practice band/soccer field, a second band practice field, two practice football fields, plenty of trees lining the 1-way road etc… Concord Middle school has plenty of room. The elementary school beside it has plenty of room to expand. Wolf Meadow has plenty of room for growth and expansion. I bet they have 10 acres of idle land that is being used for dogs to run. Granted, I do not travel to the schools on tours very often, but the only school I know of that is in desperate need for room is AT Allen. So your logic is not adding up for me.
Secondly, the “trailors last for only 10 years” is further cow manure. The trailor I spent three years teaching in (for those classes mentioned above) was built in the 1970s. Thirty plus years is a good return if you ask me.
I hate that so many people fall to this “we must have bigger, better, more schools for the KIDS” attitudes. Bogus. More schools do not improve test scores. Nicer hallways (speaking of… Anyone been inside JM Robinson??? The only bigger hallways around are at the hospital!! They have land out the yinyang!!) have never made students turn in homework. Higher taxes do not increase student learning and achievement. Period. I am in the classroom everyday. I see the massive amount of tax dollars wasted EVERYDAY. That is why I would never live in Meck. County. Cabarrus County, I am afraid, is not far behind though….
12 Aaron // May 19, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Justin and Ken,
You’re both right actually.
First, Ken is dead on when saying that where the student learns isn’t nearly as important as how or what the student learns. But they’ve gotta learn somewhere.
In past years the school board has shown less than stellar results in new school construction. Most rememberable to me was JN Fries Middle school. They moved 4 trailers on the property before the first student ever graced the halls. I can still remember them moving the HVAC trucks out of the parking lot to get the mobile classrooms moved in. It’s hilarious to think that they didn’t even have heat in the new building and it was already too small.
The current Commision has a better handle on the growth issue, I just hope the APFO holds up in court to the jackassery of the local builders concern. If the growth is managed then the schools can be managed.
Justin, you’re right in seeing that we are still spending our way out of the last commisions stupidity and that it will take some more time and money to finally get back to where we need to be.
I personally think that if the Commision stays on track to control growth and make the developers (or, more correctly, the new home buyers) foot a larger chunk of the bill for building new schools then we’ll be on the right track for something rarely seen in local politics: Balance.
Achieving that balance comes at a price. We will always have to build or improve our education infastructure. This is yet another sticking point that keeps me from changing the “R” to an “L” on my voter registration card.
I’d love to see more Charter Schools and more incentives for home schoolers as well but barring some huge shift in the common sense of most American’s, it aint gonna happen before my kids graduate college.
We do have to look at getting maximum bang for the buck and multi story schools achieve that. So do co-operative programs like those between the local community colleges and the Schools.
More multi purpose spaces like those found in the newer schools are also great ideas.
Folks who are negative towards building new schools haven’t spent much time in them from those I’ve talked to. Most of the negativity surrounds the idea that they are “palaces” but the ingenuity that’s gone into their design shows that to be untrue. Sure, more tweaking could be done but we’re a long way from where we once were.
13 Justin Thibault // May 19, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Aaron -
The best learning ain’t at a desk - in a permanent building or in a trailer - but that’s another discussion.
Ken -
So is the estimate on 50 years for a school building - they can last longer than that.
Both 50 years for a school and 10 years for a trailer are conservative estimates of replacement cost. When you’re doing long-term capital planning you don’t ask the question “How long can it last under the best conditions?” you ask instead “How long can I reasonably expect one unit of a particular population to last?”. That question yields a replacement period of less time than average life - which is conservative.
However, you escaped the larger point by arguing minutae. So, answer this question - which is cheaper for taxpayers: school buildings or trailers?
14 Rev. Mike // May 19, 2008 at 3:02 pm
I’ll hold off since you’re probably not talking about Mecklenburg.
15 Justin Thibault // May 19, 2008 at 3:05 pm
Rev. Mike -
The experiences are close enough.
Proceed.
16 Rev. Mike // May 19, 2008 at 3:23 pm
OK, I can’t help myself. Trailers are cheaper. Hands down. No argument. A trailer, purchased and installed, is probably around $500K for each classroom. If you amortize a brick and mortar classroom for, say, an elementary school, which can run you anywhere from $15-20 million for roughly 35-40 classrooms, it comes out to about $400-450K per classroom. (I’ve assumed 4.75% interest rate because that seems to be my recollection of the cost of COPs. I may be blazingly wrong, in which case it’s probably even higher.)
HOWEVER, roll in the interest, and that brick and mortar classroom costs you about $675K over the 20 year amortization period. If you use the high end of $20 million, it’s even worse. Since CMS never seems to retire a trailer (you may recall reading about Pete Gorman lamenting trailers that are older than he is), the whole 10-year life argument becomes moot.
17 Justin Thibault // May 19, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Mike - So, schools are just classrooms?
18 Rev. Mike // May 19, 2008 at 5:38 pm
No, but the rest is a little hard to get your arms around when you’re evaluating the alternatives, so at least in Mecklenburg County, the advisory committee on which I serve tries to evaluate alternatives based on dollars per seat or dollars per classroom as a way of trying to level the field.
If you think that sounds iffy, try looking at renovations and try to find a reasonable metric for those costs!
19 Steve Smith // May 19, 2008 at 5:39 pm
Charter Schools are not the answer. Look at the mess that we got here in Harrisburg with the Carolina International (Flying Yoga) School. One of the staff took about half the operating budget and ran off with it. Now the Head Master (Yoga) Dr Richard Beall has announced that he will resign. Most of the students are from Mecklenburg County and their buildings are all construction trailors.
20 Justin Thibault // May 19, 2008 at 6:51 pm
Mike - It’s not hard.
Each school has a core capacity. That is the amount of students that the supporting facilities (gymnasiums, cafeterias, athletic fields, lockers, etc.) can accommodate safely. This is not established by educational bureaucrats as much as it is by building codes (maximum number in assembly areas, evacuation plans, etc.). So, the absolute maximum number of students and teachers you can have in a facility is established by the core capacity - not by the number of classrooms (conventional or trailer) at any site.
Given that - it’s a little bit easier to factor in your equation. You can get a Price-Per-Student by using the following equation:
Price-Per-Student=(Classroom Cost($)/Student)+(Additional Core Capacity Cost($)/Student)
Now, before you were gaming the system by conveniently forgetting the Core Capacity Costs, extending the life of the trailers, and adding financing on to the brick-and-mortar solution, but not the trailer solution.
I’ll save you the time calculating. If you were dealing with 150 additional students - the capital costs are less. If you were dealing with 1,500 students - the conclusion you came to at the end of the analysis would be largely based on your personal ideology at onset. If you were dealing with 15,000 students - a trailer-based solution would be hard to justify.
And that’s just capital costs. That’s not counting other recurring costs.
So, to Kenneth and Rev. Mike - I ask again: which is cheaper?
21 Justin Thibault // May 19, 2008 at 6:52 pm
Steve - It’s impossible to draw a trend line from one point. However, I do think the International School’s issues had to do with sticky fingers than it did with capital expenditure strategy.
22 Aaron // May 19, 2008 at 8:52 pm
Thank you Justin.
Perhaps using Steve’s logic we should outlaw publicly traded companies due to what happened at places like Enron, World Com and Global Crossing.
Charter Schools are in fact a very good answer. Think of it this way: Where are the more stringent policies being enforced? At a gub-ment school where the status quo is the status quo or at a “nifty” charter school where all eyes stare constantly from their ivory tower on Old Airport Rd? (Joke)
The charter schools in this state that don’t have crooked finance directors out perform their gub-ment schools almost 3 to 1. And since it’s first come, first served and not dependent of income as private schools are, even the poor and unfortunate that the libs are always pining for can go too.
Home Schooling is also another alternative for those who qualify and have the desire. As a product of that environment for 5 years, I can attest to their success provided the parent has the right temperament and organizational skills, although my mother was also a certified teacher with a BS in Education so I might not be the best person to use as a case study on it but the kids I played sports with, went on field trips with and learned with didn’t have that luxury and still scored an average 100 points higher on their SAT’s than their private school counterparts and only God knows how much higher than their gub-ment school counterparts. But there are also costs associated with it. If the gub-ment would pay for certain programs at a fraction of the cost of regular school, you might see a few more parents consider it as an option.
There are alternatives to the local government school concern all be them, limited alternatives. The uber-rich still have the Cannon School, the uber-religious still have Covenant Classical School (although, being rich is a near mandate there as well) and places like FACS and New Life also fit the bill for the not quite rich but certainly well off.
Poor parents like me are stuck with the gub-ment schools and their monopoly. We’re looking at home schooling since finding out our son has somewhat of a learning disability and can’t get the one on one instruction they “expert’s” say he needs. But there’s more than 1k per year in costs per child not counting the countless hours spent teaching.
Even with all the “palaces” of education like those who are against the school bond issue, the basis of assigning kids to schools based on simple geography will keep some students in failing schools (the poor folks) and others in the well performing schools (the rich folks) whether they be private or public, it aint hard to see why the rich get a better education than the poor.
And no, all the racial bussing in the world won’t fix it either. Success doesn’t rely on quota’s, it relies on choice. Just look anywhere in the free market.
We will still need public schools no matter what happens and we’re growing in spite of what our commission has enacted to help curb it. We still have a huge hole left from our previous leaders to fill and we’d better start looking at filling it now versus in 10 years after you can’t get steel or wire because president Obama cut off trade relations with China because they wouldn’t mirror America’s Minimum Wage and the unions are all on strike because they don’t get a 15 hour work week.
23 Rev. Mike // May 19, 2008 at 9:11 pm
Actually, Justin, the way I described it above is the way we do it with CMS. The total cost I describe is the total cost of the building divided by the number of classrooms, so the core spaces you describe are rolled up into the cost of a classroom. I’m not really gaming the system when I do it that way. The maintenance of a trailer probably runs far less than a permanent building, especially if you look at the way we maintain our trailers. I stand by my answer–trailers are cheaper.
I’ll be giving my report to our County Commission tomorrow night, and before the day is over tomorrow, I will have thought about capital funding of public infrastructure just about as much as I want to this week! Let’s just say that you have one way of doing the calc, and I have a different one.
BTW, you, too, can watch the meeting live at http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/BOCC/Meetings/View.htm if you really feel the need for a sleep aid.
24 Justin Thibault // May 19, 2008 at 9:24 pm
Mike -
So, in your trailer calculation you include the cost of all of the support structures like gyms, etc?
OK, first off - what’s the model you’re using for a permanent building (materials, one-story vs. two). Second, color a BIT skeptical in believing that the maintenance cost of a trailer is less than that per-square foot than a permanent building. You’re missing so many economies of scale with HVAC, plumbing, etc. Not to mention you have four exposed walls per trailer (as opposed to max 2, min 0 with a classroom in a larger school).
Finally, if this calculation is true - why aren’t more private sector offices mobile units? I would have to see the numbers and their derivation to believe that the cost of ownership - per student - is the same for a permanent building than for a trailer.
25 Kenneth McClamrock // May 19, 2008 at 9:33 pm
Justin
“So, schools are just classrooms?”
YES. Is the purpose of school not to get an education? I coach high school sports. I love Friday night football and there is nothing like a North vs. Hopewell basketball game, but the purpose of school is what happens in the CLASSROOM. Period. As a tax payer I do not want to know about how many bathrooms it has, how many gyms it has or how many teacher workrooms it has. Does it have classrooms? Do the classrooms have adequate computer hookups? What USABLE technology is afforded to each classroom? What is my schedule to teach? Those are the only questions schools should be concerned with to me, as a taxpayer. As a coach, I love the fact that CMS wasted $4 million on our field house (the nicest in CMS) and stadium (ditto). However, once again, that is why I do not live in Meck Ct.
And once again. I say a trailor is far cheaper to build and maintain. My trailor is maybe 30ftx20ft??? It has a motion detector to ensure electricity is not being wasted. My HVAC unit is MORE than adequate to fullfill its duties. I control the temp myself. It is not controlled by some nutball dowtown. When my unit goes out, everyone elses still works.
Justin…
You still have not answered my question (that I see)…. What schools are busting out the seems with no extra space to expand on campus????
26 Rev. Mike // May 19, 2008 at 10:08 pm
Justin, you have me at a disadvantage. You haven’t produced one real world example to substantiate anything you’ve asserted, yet, you’re asking me to justify everything I’ve put in my responses in that manner. We’re having a general blog-type conversation here, not a public hearing, so I’m not quoting you chapter and verse on life cycle costs and everything involved. Nonetheless, I served on an ad hoc committee for the CMS Superintendent that examined all of the questions you are raising, and given that the operating and maintenance costs you describe are quite often elective, just like at the power plant, you can choose to be stupid and not spend that money. That was the point I was trying to make because when strapped for tax revenue, those are exactly the choices that governing bodies end up making.
I stand by my assertion–depending on the life cycle maintenance choices you make, the trailers are probably cheaper. The issue is that no one wants their kids to go to school in a trailer. Otherwise, the people who favor modular construction would rule the roost. The reason CMS doesn’t do it is that by the time you deal with wear and tear on drywall, for example, you just get tired of always having to fix this stuff, and if you don’t fix it, then someone turns it into a racial equity issue.
27 Justin Thibault // May 19, 2008 at 11:03 pm
Ken - So, you’re for eliminating gyms and open space for all new school construction to save money?
Rev. Mike - The reason for my skepticism is that this defies economies of scale. For example, your plant would be more expensive to operate if it were 10 100MW units than one 1,000MW unit.
So, let’s go with a real world example. In the next 5 years or so, there will be a need to house about 1,500 additional High School students in the Western part of Cabarrus County. Land prices are approaching $100K/acre. Is it cheaper to build and maintain a permanent structure or to shoehorn trailers all across the place?
The question is obtuse, because when one asks - “is it cheaper”. It’s cheaper up front to go as cheap as possible on construction, but those maintenance costs will start mounting up. A major rule of construction is that the cheapest time to build was 20 years ago and the next cheapest time is now. If you can build a low-maintenance structure - you reduce the tax burden in the future. The larger the structure, the greater economies of scale.
I’m not trying to push an ideology - I’m trying to ferret out why we keep coming up short - and I think I’m getting closer. Kenneth’s question “what schools are busting at the seams?” and your “by the time you deal with wear and tear” exhibits the underlying problem to me. We can’t think past the next election. Going cheap on construction, using COPS for financing, and not controlling growth doesn’t deal with the challenge - it just defers it.
I think the short-sightedness is a desire NOT to make a long-term investment in public education; but to hold out hope for alternatives. If so, I think it would be better to try to sell the alternatives rather than game the system.
28 Kenneth McClamrock // May 20, 2008 at 7:06 am
Justin
Since apparently no schools are busting at the seems, let me make an observation. I think the only reason Cabarrus County Schools want to build new schools is for athletic purposes only. Central Cabarrus has been kicking and screaming to get out of the 4A classification since they entered it years ago because, for the most part, they can not compete. The same can be said about JM Robinson. I think the plan to build to schools and the push behind it is purely political and by political I also mean sports-driven. A 1500 student school is not a large school. If you wonder what “busting out of the seems” looks like, last year we had 3600 students in a school built for 1500 with nearly 50 trailors. That is busting out of the seems to me. No school in Cabarrus County is in that position. If Cabarrus County wants to drop $1 mill. to purchase a land site for a future school now…. maybe. If Cabarrus County wants to take another $50-100 mill of my tax dollars, I have a problem with that. I have a problem with elected GOPers who carelessly take my money because they can. I have a problem when elected leaders say that “sometimes the matter is too urgent and we must take 50 mill. tax payer dollars now” without asking tax payers what they think about it. That is not limited government. My property taxes went up %14 this year. Why? Nothing has been built on my side of town. The roads aren’t less conjested. There are no new supermarkets or restaraunts… So why then?
There is nothing wrong with any schools in Cabarrus County. From where I stand, sports and politics are driving this push to build more schools.
29 Kenneth McClamrock // May 20, 2008 at 7:10 am
Here are the ADM #s for Cabarrus County Schools
555 A T ALLEN ELEMENTARY
846 BETHEL ELEMENTARY
405 BEVERLY HILLS ELEM
1,258 CENTRAL CABARRUS HI
348 COLTRANE-WEBB ELEM
998 HARRISBURG ELEM
932 CONCORD MIDDLE
1,194 CONCORD HIGH
878 J N FRIES MIDDLE
1,591 JAY M ROBINSON HIGH
9 CABARRUS OPPORTUNITY
1,437 C C GRIFFIN MIDDLE
819 COX MILL ELEMENTARY
1,309 HARRIS ROAD MIDDLE
792 CARL A FURR ELEM
833 MT PLEASANT ELEM
716 MT PLEASANT MIDDLE
1,000 MT PLEASANT HIGH
619 CHARLES E BOGER ELEM
1,756 NW CABARRUS HIGH
911 NW CABARRUS MIDDLE
373 ROYAL OAKS ELEM
1,027 ROCKY RIVER ELEM
355 R B MCALLISTER ELEM
948 PITTS SCHOOL RD ELEM
959 HICKORY RIDGE HIGH
48 PERFORMANCE LEARNING
41 SCH FOR ENV STUDIES
12 LONG SCHOOL
Solely looking at the numbers and not knowing anything else about the school or its campus, Bethel Elem, CC Griffin MS, Harris Rd. MS, Rockey River Elem, Pitts School Rd Elem (number-wise) look crowded. But once again, I know Pitts School Elem. has MORE than suficient space to add-on to their campus without building an entirely new school.
Does anyone have any idea what is going on with the old Odell School? Is that building sitting idle?
30 Aaron // May 20, 2008 at 7:22 am
We’re also leaving out things that make schools more expensive to construct. Title 9 is a good example.
By federal mandate, we have to have adequate programs for boys and girls to participate in sports. That means more fields and acerage for sports programs that may or may not get used much based on the interests of the specific group of kids. It’s not as bad in North Carolina as in places like California but one of the reasons that’s true is because we also make some concessions that those places didn’t used to make specifically to keep the Title 9 suits out of the area.
That is one metric of the issue, No Child Left Behind is another in that it almost forces folks to keep smaller class sizes. Our costs have increased with our decreasing the class sizes but our EOG test scores haven’t gone up that much. I’d have to say that what Ken has been saying is probably more to blame than anything else but again, another mandate made at the state and federal level is directly affecting our school construction costs.
As I said in my first comment. The newer schools are much more efficient in the way they are built versus the schools of 15 years ago. My sons school has a lunch room that doubles as an auditorium and triples as a gymnasium. His teacher has shared office space and the library doubles as teaching space for special programs.
Justin is correct when stating that the costs of operating mobile classrooms is more expensive than a large school. Short of making the walls 10″ thick you’ll have air infiltration somewhere. Each room requires a 1.5-2 ton central unit as well as seperate electrical breaker panels and contactor panels. Larger schools have these items placed centrally and require less overall cost to maintain the internal spaces.
Overall, I think the argument is based with typical CMS logic in mind. CMS is the exception and not the rule. The jackassery that exists there isn’t necessarily what would happen here.
Hey, I’m all for cutting unneccesary spending in areas where we aren’t producing results. I guess my question to those against a school bond is what areas can we cut spending in education in order facilitate the money to build schools without a bond package?
The second question is: What would have to be said or in writing to make you change your mind?
31 Rev. Mike // May 20, 2008 at 7:48 am
Justin, your suspicion probably has merits as far as people trying to sunder public education. I, too, have entertained such suspicions about our County Commission at times, especially when our political allies were in charge, and they were trying to starve the capital program as a lever against the operating budget. I used to think that was completely wrongheaded until I took measure of the real intransigence of our BOE. I’m still not there, but I at least can see where it finally got someone’s attention at CMS, and now that they finally got their bond passed, everything has gone right back to the status quo ante.
32 Rev. Mike // May 20, 2008 at 7:53 am
The other thing we need to consider, by the way, is not just “is it cheaper.” Like Mecklenburgers, Cabarrus County voters need to ask themselves an aesthetic question–if we simply scatter trailers across the landscape because they’re cheaper, at some level, do we starve the souls of our children at the same time? What does it teach them about the value of art and beauty? Unfortunately, those are moral judgments, not given to fiscal analysis. Sometimes it IS necessary to argue over matters of taste.
33 Kenneth McClamrock // May 20, 2008 at 8:04 am
Aaron
What would it take to change my mind?? Answers and proof to my suspicions and assertions… Prove that there is undeniable need to buy/build completely new schools a opposed to new buildings at old schools, prove that the leaders-to-be have exhausted every possible program and cost to cut costs and make it as cheap as possible for the taxpayer, and prove that the intentions behind building new schools are not to keep older schools out of higher sports classifications. That would be a good start.
34 Justin Thibault // May 20, 2008 at 8:55 am
Ken - To answer your question about Odell: The old Odell School Site is unacceptable and unsafe for kids today.
As for the numbers you shared: The issue isn’t the numbers RIGHT NOW - the issue is what we’re going to do next.
The immutable truth is that there are two things you never want to be - a motivated buyer or a motivated seller. There are thousands of homes that were approved by the Privette-controlled board. We still have to deal with the students from these in addition to any additional approvals (usually from the cities). In spite of the larger market, Cabarrus County is still growing. Just looking at the current situation leads to disaster. Want an example - here you go.
For the first time in about 15 years, we’re in a situation where we can make a decision with hard facts, a Board of Commissioners that aren’t opponents of public education, and a Board of Education that aren’t opponents of them. We need to seize this opportunity to optimize our long-term strategy so we’re not contemplating a bond in 2012, then in 2016, etc.
Rev. Mike - The political landscape in Mecklenburg County is much more polarized. I listened to the school board members on Charlotte Talks and listened to extremes on either side. Also, you’re dealing with tensions on other fronts on entirely different orders of magnitude.
The point is - and I could be wrong - I don’t think we’ve ever built a school and regretted it. However, I’ve heard plenty of grousing about the conditions at some of our sites. You are right - to a degree - about the aesthetics: it makes a difference; but I think you want to send the message early that it’s important to be good stewards too.
35 Aaron // May 20, 2008 at 9:38 am
Ken-
What areas in education budgets can be cut in order to make room for more school construction?
36 Aaron // May 20, 2008 at 9:40 am
Ken-
Also, keep in mind that CC Griffin is 400 students over capacity and as I type, a developer is completing the grading and road cut ins for a 1600 home subdivision within spitting distance of CC Griffin’s Driveway.
That’s 2.5 children per household that will all have to enter grades 6-8 at some point.
37 Kenneth McClamrock // May 20, 2008 at 9:45 am
Justin
You are right. Those numbers are from September, 2007 as found here:
http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/fbs/accounting/data/adm/2007-08m1admmld.xls
But so what?? Here are the numbers from the 5th month of school:
http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/fbs/accounting/data/adm/2007-08m5admmld.xls
I guess I want get an answer about the schools with no space??
38 Justin Thibault // May 20, 2008 at 10:07 am
Ken -
You could start by talking to (not at) the administration who gives you a paycheck.
The issue isn’t RIGHT NOW. What we have RIGHT NOW comes from decisions that were made years ago. A school bond, COPs, etc. takes care of future issues.
39 Kenneth McClamrock // May 20, 2008 at 10:12 am
Aaron
It would be hard to comment on what can be cut in Cabarrus County schools without inside knowledge of the situation. But I will give you several examples from Meck. County that may or may not be similar to Cab. Ct. Several years ago CMS was spending over $250k to buy bumper stickers for parents. That is a waste. I see Cab. Ct. stickers all the time. Four years ago CMS spent $10k to train US History teachers on a simulation-style of teaching that is impossible to use because of the Pacing Guide and mandates. That was a waste. CMS pays one teacher per subject for afterschool tutoring up to four days a week. Something most teachers do/would do anyway. That is a waste. CMS allows students who miss too many days to attend “Recovery” after school. The “recoverers” and “tutorees” get to rid the buses home. School busses get about 7mi/ga… Do the math… That is a waste. CMS pays for ALL AP and IB level students exams. These tests cost $75 in 1999 (when I was in school). I am sure they are more now. Since I didnt want to pay the money, I didnt take the test. Since CMS students are not paying for it, and most are seniors who could care less at the end of the year anyhow, most students dont even attempt to answer the questions. I have heard stories of what kind of shapes the students have created in the bubbles… That is a waste. CMS spent over $1 mill. building new science labs with state of the art equipment at Garinger with their latest school bond money. Uhmmmm… I do not think many scientist are coming out of the Wildcats alumn. That is a waste of money. CMS buys random technology and then gives it to all teachers, many of whom never use it. Why not ask, “We have $100 for each teacher… Here are a list of things you can use it for. What best fits your teaching style?” That is a waste of money. CM S pays for seniors who failed (used to be offered to all students) free summer school. Because summer school is only 6? weeks long, many kids would skip classes and fail because they knew summer school as much shorter and easier. CMS tells the summer teachers that they are not allowed to flunk students. That is a waste of money. CMS offers all students free lunch if they do not have their money. These are students not enrolled in the Free/Reduced Lunch program. Their is no accountability to ensure those debts get repaid. That is a waste of money. CMS has schools (like Garinger and Olympic) that have 5-7 schools within them! Each of those “sub”-schools have a principal. They are paying principal pay for many principals at the same school. That is a waste of money. CMS built Berry Academy a few years ago about 2 miles from Harding High. It might be the nicest school in CMS. Berry has 1,000 students. Harding has 1,200. That is a waste of money when North had 3,600 last year and Independence, Myers Park and Hopewell were sitting at near or more than 3000 students.
Those are quicky but easy ways…
I know for a fact that Cab. Ct. has entire busses taking only 1 kid home EVERY day several hours earlier than every other student because they are so bad. Figure out how much diesel gas money is being spent to take home kids by themself daily. Wouldnt you say that is a waste of money?
40 Kenneth McClamrock // May 20, 2008 at 10:22 am
Justin
So you are asking people to hypothetically imagine one day down the road, maybe 10, 20, 50 years from now,that all the free spaces currently within our BIG HUGE campusses will be overran with two-story buildings and that school sizes will reach 3000- 4000 students with class sizes 35-40 that we will then need more schools??? It is hard for me to think that subjectively. Lets ;use what resources we have now and once those are exhausted, we can move forward. What is the price difference between adding a 2-story building or two per school now to building entirely new SCHOOLS, hiring more administrators, reource officers, building stadiums, buying sports uniforms etc…? I bet the 2 story building on existing campusses it is a lot cheaper.
41 Aaron // May 20, 2008 at 10:37 am
Ken,
All of those costs are good items to take issue with. I’d say that there are plenty of these similar expenses around in Cabarrus County.
One I know of is the Apple Smart Board and the new, Apple Lap Top my son’s second grade teacher has. I don’t know exactly why a smart board is any better than a black board but the price tag’s don’t justify using it to teach second graders basic math.
Another good point, all be it at the state level, is the constant changing of curriculum and teaching methodology. The good ol’ days of Reading, Riting and Rithmatic(the 3 R’s) are dead and buried.
The post 1960’s touchy feely education system has eliminated the idea that some kids just aren’t capable of doing certain things. Even the moron’s who are convicted felons at age 16 are still told to apply to college by their guidance counselor. I had no desire to go to college when I was a Senior, not to mention the money and that was all my counselor told me over and over and over again. These are all wastes of money as well.
No doubt, the education system as a whole has plenty of changing to do. I doubt anything will ever change. Call my a cynic or just a pessemist but I don’t see the system ever changing while the gub-ment is running things. Regardless of the changes needed, our growth dictates our need for school expansion, not the wasteful spending of the BOE or BOC. It is something that needs to be addressed should a bond refferendum ever come up but right now, barring some miracle of common sense, we’re not gonna re-invent the wheel in order to keep taxes low and still build school.
42 Kenneth McClamrock // May 20, 2008 at 10:44 am
Aaron
You are right. I have heard of the “smart boards”. They are the big new thing in teaching. Of course there is no difference with a white board. It is all for show while ignoring the true problems. And you are right about the wrong students being pushed on a college path. I tell my students that “if you are not going to college and you are not ready to go to work yet, then go to the military.” That is a path I believe our gubment institutions do not encourage students enough with.
What can be done to ensure that only those new residents and builders of the communities pay for the growth… not me the other tax payer?
43 Justin Thibault // May 20, 2008 at 10:45 am
Ken -
Why not?
That thinking is the reason we have the mess with growth that we have now and the jail is woefully overbudget.
You were born too late - you would have made a great CTA spokesperson.
44 Kenneth McClamrock // May 20, 2008 at 11:14 am
So instead, lets raise taxes, build schools we dont need and forget about it?? Sorry. No way.
45 Cabarrus Cheap Seats // May 21, 2008 at 3:08 pm
Open Thread: No Child Left Behind?…
This is from the School Bond thread.
It’s been 7 years or so since the passage of No Child Left Behind (NCLB). Good, bad, or indifferent?
……
Leave a Comment